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	<title>Comments on: Week 8 &#8211; Student Presentations I</title>
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	<description>Systems: Theory, Science, and Metaphor</description>
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		<title>By: Erich Wolodzko</title>
		<link>http://symbsys205.edublogs.org/2007/05/21/week-8-student-presentations-i/comment-page-1/#comment-109</link>
		<dc:creator>Erich Wolodzko</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 May 2007 02:22:35 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>testtesttesttesttesttesttesttesttest</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>testtesttesttesttesttesttesttesttest</p>
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		<title>By: Erich Wolodzko</title>
		<link>http://symbsys205.edublogs.org/2007/05/21/week-8-student-presentations-i/comment-page-1/#comment-108</link>
		<dc:creator>Erich Wolodzko</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 May 2007 02:20:15 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;em&gt;test&lt;/em&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>test</em></p>
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		<title>By: Jorge Ortiz</title>
		<link>http://symbsys205.edublogs.org/2007/05/21/week-8-student-presentations-i/comment-page-1/#comment-107</link>
		<dc:creator>Jorge Ortiz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 May 2007 01:09:01 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I too was impressed by the links between the two readings. In the reading on stereotype threat, when confronted with such a threat, all identity groups perform worse. It is exactly when the stakes appear to be higher that people underperform. In the reading on optimism and pessimism, when something is very important, pessimists need even more confidence to put in a lot of effort, and optimists need to lose even more confidence before they give up. Both seem to suggest that high-stakes situations make human behavior less rational. This is a strong criticism of our high-stakes test-obsessed culture. High-stakes situations will make pessimists remain pessimistic even long; high-stakes situations will also make the crash of confidence for an optimist even worse, when it does occur.

Given the recent concerns on campus about mental health, I wonder what the implications of these theories are for treatment. A place like Stanford is perceived by students as a very high-stakes game. Placing a lot of intelligent people into a competitive environment is bound to produce threat, not just for people who identify as members of groups with negative stereotypes about their performance, but for anyone who might identify as possibly &quot;not good enough&quot; for Stanford. Performing well in school, graduating, getting a good job... all of these things are imbued with such importance by the pervading culture on campus that even an optimistic student will have a crash of confidence if they perceive enough setbacks. And setbacks are almost destined to occur in a situation where there is stereotype threat.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I too was impressed by the links between the two readings. In the reading on stereotype threat, when confronted with such a threat, all identity groups perform worse. It is exactly when the stakes appear to be higher that people underperform. In the reading on optimism and pessimism, when something is very important, pessimists need even more confidence to put in a lot of effort, and optimists need to lose even more confidence before they give up. Both seem to suggest that high-stakes situations make human behavior less rational. This is a strong criticism of our high-stakes test-obsessed culture. High-stakes situations will make pessimists remain pessimistic even long; high-stakes situations will also make the crash of confidence for an optimist even worse, when it does occur.</p>
<p>Given the recent concerns on campus about mental health, I wonder what the implications of these theories are for treatment. A place like Stanford is perceived by students as a very high-stakes game. Placing a lot of intelligent people into a competitive environment is bound to produce threat, not just for people who identify as members of groups with negative stereotypes about their performance, but for anyone who might identify as possibly &#8220;not good enough&#8221; for Stanford. Performing well in school, graduating, getting a good job&#8230; all of these things are imbued with such importance by the pervading culture on campus that even an optimistic student will have a crash of confidence if they perceive enough setbacks. And setbacks are almost destined to occur in a situation where there is stereotype threat.</p>
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		<title>By: David Hall</title>
		<link>http://symbsys205.edublogs.org/2007/05/21/week-8-student-presentations-i/comment-page-1/#comment-106</link>
		<dc:creator>David Hall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 May 2007 00:39:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://symbsys205.edublogs.org/2007/05/21/week-8-student-presentations-i/#comment-106</guid>
		<description>Don&#039;t use &gt;&#039;s in your post... use &gt;&#039;s...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Don&#8217;t use &gt;&#8217;s in your post&#8230; use &amp;gt;&#8217;s&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Jessica Long</title>
		<link>http://symbsys205.edublogs.org/2007/05/21/week-8-student-presentations-i/comment-page-1/#comment-105</link>
		<dc:creator>Jessica Long</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 May 2007 00:39:30 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I am consistently surprised by the magnitude of the effect of stereotype threat, especially among groups who are not characteristically discriminated against.  For example, I was fascinated by the idea that white males, a typically dominant group in terms of mathematical ability, underperformed when they were informed that they were being compared to Asians.  It’s also interesting that stereotype threat does not take effect until age 5 or 6.  Last quarter I wrote a paper on stereotype threat based on gender and mathematics, and many people tried to argue that mathematical ability is intrinsically different between the sexes.  If stereotype threat does exist in very young children, this is at least moderately compelling evidence to the contrary.  Furthermore, the modulating influence of an abstract sense of importance is very important to my article as well.  Perhaps, as Siobhan mentioned, we will be able to discuss the commonalities between the two ideas in class tonight.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am consistently surprised by the magnitude of the effect of stereotype threat, especially among groups who are not characteristically discriminated against.  For example, I was fascinated by the idea that white males, a typically dominant group in terms of mathematical ability, underperformed when they were informed that they were being compared to Asians.  It’s also interesting that stereotype threat does not take effect until age 5 or 6.  Last quarter I wrote a paper on stereotype threat based on gender and mathematics, and many people tried to argue that mathematical ability is intrinsically different between the sexes.  If stereotype threat does exist in very young children, this is at least moderately compelling evidence to the contrary.  Furthermore, the modulating influence of an abstract sense of importance is very important to my article as well.  Perhaps, as Siobhan mentioned, we will be able to discuss the commonalities between the two ideas in class tonight.</p>
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		<title>By: David Hall</title>
		<link>http://symbsys205.edublogs.org/2007/05/21/week-8-student-presentations-i/comment-page-1/#comment-104</link>
		<dc:creator>David Hall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 May 2007 00:39:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://symbsys205.edublogs.org/2007/05/21/week-8-student-presentations-i/#comment-104</guid>
		<description>On the Carver/Scheier article, I found the math somewhat hard to follow, but I think that&#039;s partially because they did a rather poor job expressing it. Instead of expressing x,y,z as an implicit equation, they should have expressed it in terms of a recursion (if at all possible), since that gets the path dependent (or, as they say, local history) aspect down. That is, make y_t a function of x,z, and y_i, for i &amp;gt t. Then the correlation would be much more understandable, and the &quot;hysterisis&quot; wouldn&#039;t be so much of problem for them to explain. And, more importantly, local history wouldn&#039;t be a hard concept to explain if you actually had the history explicit in your explanation in the first place.

Enough with the rant. That reading also reminded me of an AI thing from 221, which describes a clever means to do planning for a computer called a Markov Decision Process. Essentially, you assign goals a positive weight, depending on how awesome they are, and antigoals a negative weight. Then, for each state touching a goal, you set the value of that state to be the expectation of moving from the state. (That is, if you have a .5 chance to get -1 and a.5 chance to get a 2, you end up with a 1.) You keep recursing until you get the start state&#039;s value. The similarity I think is clear: anti-goals are just goals with negative value, and you don&#039;t need to distinguish between them at all in this model.

Things actually get a lot more complicated: you might not even know how far you are from your goal, and you have to figure it out yourself!  Here, the more you act, the more you learn about where you are, and thus about how to get to where you want to be and avoid where you don&#039;t want to be. Thus, you get the same sort of feedback loop that they&#039;re describing, since disturbances and actions affect your internal state, as well as your plans for attaining your goals (and the value of those goals!).

Under this model, though, you don&#039;t need to have their weird assertion that an anti-goal will usually end up giving rise to a goal. They gave the example of a rebellious adolescent who avoids his parents and finds a group of like minded friends. To my estimation, that&#039;s two disjoint goals that don&#039;t need to be related: one can want friends, and one can want to avoid one&#039;s parents. Add some homophily (Erich&#039;s and my topic!) and you get the expected behavior: avoid parents and run to a group of friends who also hate their parents.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>On the Carver/Scheier article, I found the math somewhat hard to follow, but I think that&#8217;s partially because they did a rather poor job expressing it. Instead of expressing x,y,z as an implicit equation, they should have expressed it in terms of a recursion (if at all possible), since that gets the path dependent (or, as they say, local history) aspect down. That is, make y_t a function of x,z, and y_i, for i &amp;gt t. Then the correlation would be much more understandable, and the &#8220;hysterisis&#8221; wouldn&#8217;t be so much of problem for them to explain. And, more importantly, local history wouldn&#8217;t be a hard concept to explain if you actually had the history explicit in your explanation in the first place.</p>
<p>Enough with the rant. That reading also reminded me of an AI thing from 221, which describes a clever means to do planning for a computer called a Markov Decision Process. Essentially, you assign goals a positive weight, depending on how awesome they are, and antigoals a negative weight. Then, for each state touching a goal, you set the value of that state to be the expectation of moving from the state. (That is, if you have a .5 chance to get -1 and a.5 chance to get a 2, you end up with a 1.) You keep recursing until you get the start state&#8217;s value. The similarity I think is clear: anti-goals are just goals with negative value, and you don&#8217;t need to distinguish between them at all in this model.</p>
<p>Things actually get a lot more complicated: you might not even know how far you are from your goal, and you have to figure it out yourself!  Here, the more you act, the more you learn about where you are, and thus about how to get to where you want to be and avoid where you don&#8217;t want to be. Thus, you get the same sort of feedback loop that they&#8217;re describing, since disturbances and actions affect your internal state, as well as your plans for attaining your goals (and the value of those goals!).</p>
<p>Under this model, though, you don&#8217;t need to have their weird assertion that an anti-goal will usually end up giving rise to a goal. They gave the example of a rebellious adolescent who avoids his parents and finds a group of like minded friends. To my estimation, that&#8217;s two disjoint goals that don&#8217;t need to be related: one can want friends, and one can want to avoid one&#8217;s parents. Add some homophily (Erich&#8217;s and my topic!) and you get the expected behavior: avoid parents and run to a group of friends who also hate their parents.</p>
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		<title>By: David Hall</title>
		<link>http://symbsys205.edublogs.org/2007/05/21/week-8-student-presentations-i/comment-page-1/#comment-103</link>
		<dc:creator>David Hall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 May 2007 00:39:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>i </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>i</p>
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		<title>By: David Hall</title>
		<link>http://symbsys205.edublogs.org/2007/05/21/week-8-student-presentations-i/comment-page-1/#comment-102</link>
		<dc:creator>David Hall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 May 2007 00:38:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://symbsys205.edublogs.org/2007/05/21/week-8-student-presentations-i/#comment-102</guid>
		<description>wordpress hates me
hold on...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>wordpress hates me<br />
hold on&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: David Hall</title>
		<link>http://symbsys205.edublogs.org/2007/05/21/week-8-student-presentations-i/comment-page-1/#comment-101</link>
		<dc:creator>David Hall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 May 2007 00:38:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://symbsys205.edublogs.org/2007/05/21/week-8-student-presentations-i/#comment-101</guid>
		<description></description>
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		<title>By: David Hall</title>
		<link>http://symbsys205.edublogs.org/2007/05/21/week-8-student-presentations-i/comment-page-1/#comment-100</link>
		<dc:creator>David Hall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 May 2007 00:37:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://symbsys205.edublogs.org/2007/05/21/week-8-student-presentations-i/#comment-100</guid>
		<description>On the Carver/Scheier article, I found the math somewhat hard to follow, but I think that&#039;s partially because they did a rather poor job expressing it. Instead of expressing x,y,z as an implicit equation, they should have expressed it in terms of a recursion (if at all possible), since that gets the path dependent (or, as they say, local history) aspect down. That is, make y_t a function of x,z, and y_i, for i </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>On the Carver/Scheier article, I found the math somewhat hard to follow, but I think that&#8217;s partially because they did a rather poor job expressing it. Instead of expressing x,y,z as an implicit equation, they should have expressed it in terms of a recursion (if at all possible), since that gets the path dependent (or, as they say, local history) aspect down. That is, make y_t a function of x,z, and y_i, for i</p>
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